Message Forum - Read Message

Category: All Things Ethanol > Topics	Add to favorite topics Post New Topic

Author	Topic: Shell Announces LNG Fueling Plans	Post a Reply Back to Topics

brerrabbitTX Champion Author Houston Posts:1,025 Points:18,185 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Jun 14, 2012 1:54:39 PM Ignore brerrabbitTX Report Abuse Big Oil steps forward to offering alternative fuels.Shell to sell LNG [Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 6/14/2012 1:56:46 PM EST]

brerrabbitTX

Champion Author
Houston

Posts:1,025
Points:18,185
Joined:Mar 2011

Message Posted: Jun 14, 2012 1:54:39 PM

Ignore brerrabbitTX Report Abuse

Big Oil steps forward to offering alternative fuels.Shell to sell LNG

[Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 6/14/2012 1:56:46 PM EST]

REPLIES (newest first)Ignore Short Messages

E-Squirrel Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,012 Points:819,060 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Jun 25, 2012 9:55:44 PM Ignore E-Squirrel Report Abuse oilpan4 explains: "One problem with fuel cells is you cant bring them straight into use from a cold shut down... (running the vehicle straight off the fuel cell power is a dumb idea)" Yes, these are among the multiple problems that plague fuel cells. As you point out, they need to reach operating temperature before you can extract any real power, and you can't "throttle" them either; they need to produce a constant, level output. This necessitates that a fuel cell vehicle is also a "hybrid" design. The fuel cell charges a battery, and then the battery's current is "throttled" to control the torque of the electric motor. The fuel cell - hybrid battery system is computer controlled, and the fuel cell is operated to keep the charge as close to 100% as possible, even "running" after the car is shut off. This raises the cost of a fuel cell vehicle even higher than its already astronomical cost (6 figures). If this technology ever becomes practical for a vehicle drive train, it won't be in my lifetime.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,041 Points:306,600 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Jun 24, 2012 11:18:59 AM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse Powering a fuel cell off anything besides hydrogen is a much better option. One problem with fuel cells is you cant bring them straight into use from a cold shut down. With any piston you can crank it up on a cold morning and go. Fuel cells will need to be kept warm or will need a lenghty warm up peroid before they can produce power. Since fuel cells will be the power source for an electric car (running the vehicle straight off the fuel cell power is a dumb idea) it may be more feasable then even I think it is. Also fuel cells are most efficient at light load. When you start putting high demand and feeding them air and alcohol or natural gas efficiency plumits from the touted "50%" number you will always hear thrown around. They most certianly can be 50% efficient if you feed them hydrogen and pure oxygen and run them at light load. Under less than ideal conditions with non ideal fuel their efficiency very quickly drops to 25%-35% or less.
E-Squirrel Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,012 Points:819,060 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Jun 23, 2012 7:38:22 PM Ignore E-Squirrel Report Abuse oilpan4 expresses skepticism: 'You might as well forget about hydrogen fuel cell. Here is the deal with hydrogen fuel cells, first hydrogen all around is just about the worst fuel you could think of to use to power a vehicle...' Actually, I agree with you. However, it is one theoretical way to power a vehicle from natural gas. Its possible that at some future date, technology may eliminate the rare metals in the fuel cell, and natural gas may become even more economical than it is today, making a fuel cell car possible. But its decades away, not in my lifetime anyway.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,041 Points:306,600 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Jun 21, 2012 7:09:13 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse " but could be solved with vehicles designed for methanol), or used in higher concentrations with vehicles designed for it". A diesel will run off methanol or a water methanol mix just like it would with natural gas and intake fumigation. A diesel fed straight methanol or a water methanol mix will run better than with out it, a gasoline engine on the other hand will suffer diminishing performance and fuel economy with the more methanol you add to the gasoline. You might as well forget about hydrogen fuel cell. Here is the deal with hydrogen fuel cells, first hydrogen all around is just about the worst fuel you could think of to use to power a vehicle and just happens to be by far the most expensive fuel you can buy. Then you have the fuel cell, which is the most expensive and least effective way to power an electric vehicle. Put the 2 of them together and you have your self the ultimate unworkable combination.
E-Squirrel Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,012 Points:819,060 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Jun 21, 2012 4:51:53 PM Ignore E-Squirrel Report Abuse oilpan4 mentions ways to use LNG: "A regular diesel engine could use LNG to off set a lot of its diesel consumption or are they looking for engines that run off straight natural gas?" While Shell may be involved in selling LNG, its probably not intended for cars anytime in the near future. Some easier ways to use natural gas in vehicles is compressed form (limited storage capacity), or conversion to hydrogen for fuel cell vehicles (currently too expensive), or conversion to methanol, which could be added, in small quantities to gasoline (corrosion issues, but could be solved with vehicles designed for methanol), or used in higher concentrations with vehicles designed for it. The later form would be the easiest form to use natural gas for vehicular use with our existing infrastructure. While convenient to handle, methanol contains even less energy per gallon than ethanol, but it doesn't matter if the natural gas is cheap enough. [Edited by: E-Squirrel at 6/21/2012 4:53:05 PM EST]
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,041 Points:306,600 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 10:16:56 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse The heat exchanger will be for boiling the LNG for use in the engine. The smallest cryo cooler I know of is about the size of a small car and is very expensive. Since they talk about pressure management and venting gas there is no cooling system that will keep it in liquid state. I work with liquid oxygen and liquid nitrogen storage and dispenser units I have a pretty good idea what the properties of cryo liquids are like and what it takes to store them. I had this one 50 gallon LN2 cart, when it wouldn't get used it would lose a half gallon aday of LN2. [Edited by: oilpan4 at 6/16/2012 10:18:46 PM EST]
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,929 Points:2,214,590 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 7:19:30 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse oilpan4, according to Cryogenic Fuels Inc.: "Unlike the passive fuels, gasoline, diesel, compressed natural gas or propane, LNG is an active fuel, continually changing state as heat enters the liquid fuel through the vehicle fuel tank’s suspension system, insulating materials and the tank vacuum. This system “heat leak” has a dramatic effect on the pressure, temperature and density relationships of the LNG. The resulting phase-change behavior in the LNG makes it very difficult to control the vehicle fuel tank pressure and maintain a consistent fuel quality for delivery to the engine within the specified air/fuel ratios. The weathering of LNG occurs when an economizer valve (regulator) is used on the vehicle fuel tank to allow, “boil off gas” (BOG), pure gaseous methane vapor, to be withdrawn to reduce the pressure in the tank. The frequency and duration of the vapor withdrawal is a function of the amount of heat entering the LNG. The line from this economizer valve is connected to the liquid fuel delivery line and the combined vapor/liquid flow is then routed to the LNG vaporizer (heat exchanger). It is important to note that all conventional “industrial gas” cryogenic containers are equipped with a pressure management device of this type." It doesn't specifically say, but I'll bet the heat exchanger is used to help cool the LNG tank.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,041 Points:306,600 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 5:46:19 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse I am pretty sure the LNG trucks wont run LNG refrigration units. The LNG will just sit in the tank and slowly burn off if it doesn't get used.
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,929 Points:2,214,590 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 2:30:58 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Banjoe asks "Now, how to get myself an LNG suitable vehicle?" If you are talking about a vehicle used for personal transportation, I don't believe one is practical. LNG must be kept in cryogenic tanks, which are heavily insulated tanks equipped with refrigeration units. The energy required to keep the refrigeration system going isn't practical for low energy consumption vehicles like automobiles. It becomes economically feasible for long distance truckers, who consume a lot of energy in a short amount of time. There are plenty of CNG conversion kits for gasoline engines. I would think that any fuel station offering LNG would also offer CNG, as you can haul LNG in, then convert the LNG to CNG.
mr157ifhz Sophomore Author Gasbuddy Posts:155 Points:3,120 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 12:37:23 PM Ignore mr157ifhz Report Abuse Look up the Fiat Siena tetra fuel too bad this one isn't available to the North American market. Runs on gasoline, ethanol, and natural gas.
Hannie59 All-Star Author Appleton Posts:582 Points:15,115 Joined:Apr 2010	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 10:18:22 AM Ignore Hannie59 Report Abuse Banjoe, wish there were more vehicles for that as well. [Edited by: Hannie59 at 6/16/2012 10:20:31 AM EST]
jay93LA Champion Author New Orleans Posts:2,439 Points:597,760 Joined:Aug 2011	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 9:57:49 AM Ignore jay93LA Report Abuse great go natural
Banjoe Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:4,231 Points:612,235 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 9:04:21 AM Ignore Banjoe Report Abuse Now this is a real alternate fuel that has a future. We have cheap abundant source and a distribution infrastructure already in place. Now, how to get myself an LNG suitable vehicle?
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,531 Points:2,716,865 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Jun 16, 2012 12:46:20 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse I have no problem with the use of natural gas. It is plentiful in my area. They tried it in cars here for awhile. A few station owners put pumps in, but no cars came, so they closed the pumps down. I stopped and talked to them about it, and it seems that know one in the area was converting or knew how to convert a car to natural gas. When I lived in VA I do remember a driver for a delivery company claimed their trucks was fuelled with compressed gas. He claimed that when they changed the oil at 5000 miles, it looked as clean as the day they put it in. I say bring it on, and lets cut our dependence on foreign oil.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,041 Points:306,600 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Jun 15, 2012 11:58:38 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse Any word on what kind of engine they would like to use it in? A regular diesel engine could use LNG to off set a lot of its diesel consumption or are they looking for engines that run off straight natural gas?
brerrabbitTX Champion Author Houston Posts:1,025 Points:18,185 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Jun 15, 2012 11:22:37 PM Ignore brerrabbitTX Report Abuse The plan is that long haul transportation companies are looking for cheaper fueling options and they will operate vehicles that use LNG. Many are commited to the idea and are just waiting for the fueling infrastructure to be in place. This is by no means a total solution but rather a targeted solution aimed at one segment of the transportation fueling business. Don't expect it to replace gasoline.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,041 Points:306,600 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Jun 15, 2012 9:07:37 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse Whats the plan to get people to use LNG? Methanol intake fumigation my be an all around better option. I can't say for sure but it may be cheaper to turn the natural gas into methanol and produce, ship and store it than to produce, ship and store LNG.
brerrabbitTX Champion Author Houston Posts:1,025 Points:18,185 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Jun 15, 2012 9:30:41 AM Ignore brerrabbitTX Report Abuse Chemist, You bring up a very good point. This is a cleaner, cheaper alternative to current fuels and businesses are willing to invest in it without incentives from the government. They see it as good business. Oilpan, if you read the article it says 200 fueling lanes at 100 sites on the interstate highway system and they are specifically targeting long haul truckers. The intent is not to pursue individual auto use.
chemist74 Champion Author Cleveland Posts:13,510 Points:2,395,980 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: Jun 15, 2012 8:45:33 AM Ignore chemist74 Report Abuse If LNG is going to be used by big trucks, there needs to be a well established nationwide network of refueling stations. This is a beginning. It shows that if it makes sense, business will do it without government money.
oilpan4 Champion Author Virginia Posts:12,041 Points:306,600 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Jun 14, 2012 11:49:38 PM Ignore oilpan4 Report Abuse I hope people realize LNG will burn off if you dont drive your car every single day. CNG will at least stick around until you burn it.
brerrabbitTX Champion Author Houston Posts:1,025 Points:18,185 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Jun 14, 2012 5:34:26 PM Ignore brerrabbitTX Report Abuse Understood that vehicles will need modifications to use and for what it is worth the target market is not cars. It's an alternative for long haul truckers and carriers. I think the real reason I think this is relivant is because so many times when ethanol is discussed the pro ethanol crowd says the big oil is anti ethanol/ anti alternative fuels. I work for an oil company and I don't buy into that at all. Big Oil is not anti ethanol/ anti alternative fuels. They have invested a lot of money in the alternative fuel market including numerous forays into cellulostic ethanol, wind, solar, CNG, LNG, etc. They have a distribution system that spans the US and if the product needs transporting via pipeline, rail, barge or truck they currently have assets in the markets to deliver it. They realize that the future of energy and fuel for transportation in the future will include multiple types of fuel and they want to continue to be in the business. I see this as an extension of that plan.
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,929 Points:2,214,590 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Jun 14, 2012 4:48:15 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Good, but most people can't run their existing vehicles on it without modifications.
Shockjock1961 Champion Author Illinois Posts:20,107 Points:2,183,210 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Jun 14, 2012 4:23:22 PM Ignore Shockjock1961 Report Abuse That's great! It's sure a heck of a lot better of an alternative then ethanol!